Help! Emergency advice please for peace lily poisoning
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- You can quote me
Okay. That's good news, glad to hear you have them back.
The more they drink, the better. You can offer carrot juice, pulp-free orange juice, unflavored Pedialyte (infants' electrolyte solution, many pigs love this stuff) by syringe if they're not drinking their water well. Try bottled water (some of ours have preferred Dasani to tap water). Keep some in the fridge and offer it ice-cold. The bottles will drip a bit but many of ours will tank down ice-cold water.
Good luck and please let us know how they're doing.
The more they drink, the better. You can offer carrot juice, pulp-free orange juice, unflavored Pedialyte (infants' electrolyte solution, many pigs love this stuff) by syringe if they're not drinking their water well. Try bottled water (some of ours have preferred Dasani to tap water). Keep some in the fridge and offer it ice-cold. The bottles will drip a bit but many of ours will tank down ice-cold water.
Good luck and please let us know how they're doing.
Thanks. It's been a slow slog, and the piggies took priority once they were home. The good news is they both seem really well. We're close to the three day mark and the pee is still coming. The bad news is we're all exhausted, which is okay really, considering what we're dealing with. I'll give a proper update when my brain works better.
An update.
First of all, everything about both pigs seem fine. (And I myself have finally caught up with enough sleep to possibly post coherently.)
Lynx, you said you were trying to wrap your brain around what the issue/danger is. I'm not sure what it is either, but the vet said it did not cause "acute renal failure" and caused "chronic renal failure" instead. So here is how I thought of the problem given what little understanding I have of the information I was able to find.
Peace lily contains calcium oxalate crystals, which in cats and dogs cause mouth and digestive tract irritation, possibly airway obstruction/swelling, and don't seem toxic or deadly. In a guinea pig, however, this caused chronic renal failure (along with ingestion of philodendron) after a month. Since these calcium oxalate monohydrate crystals are insoluble, there is a question of whether they will be absorbed via the digestive tract and have to pass out through the urine. I assumed there was a possibility it could somehow end up in the kidneys and clog up the tubules etc and cause pressure build up and renal failure over time.
There may be other poisons in the peace lily that cause renal failure. One of the vets at the emergency centre said this also. So I assume this can poison the kidney also.
So when I picked them up, I was sort of in a tired daze but sobered up enough to start giving them water I'd thrown in the car the previous day. It almost tripled the time to get home with stops every hour to feed them with a syringe.
The vet had said he wanted to keep them over the weekend for fluid diuresis. (I thought he said IV, but it was given subcutaneously). They had given 40ml each by the time I'd picked them up 18 hours later, along with 15ml of vitamin C which is very little water. The bigger one even had slightly sunken eyes and I even took pictures in the car (wonder if it showed). They were supposed to have kidney function tests on Monday which would require isofluorane and blood extraction via the neck. The plan was to have me give extra fluids by mouth for a month after.
I went to see a vet that afternoon to have extra subcutaneous liquids put in, so that I could sleep. The vet said that if I could keep up with giving them fluids orally, in guinea pigs that is preferable to fluids according to a guinea pig veterinary manual he had. The plan was to give them 20mls in each side, but I thought about it and decided to try fluids and go back for the injections the next day if I couldn't feed them enough, and that turned out unnecessary.
I went with the hand feeding page reference of 10-40ml/100g body weight of water. It was hard to keep track of everything in a notebook, and I recently rediscovered spreadsheets so I drew up a simple one. I fed them water via a 1 ml syringe every hour if possible, sometimes more. The spreadsheet calculated the minimum water required per hour, and my goal was to reach that every hour, because it's easier to feed an extra syringeful of water every hour, than to feed a few syringefuls extra every few hours. Also, at first I wanted to feed plain water (the pure stuff I bought) to better flush out any calcium crystals, but because for some reason, I know of this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia where someone could die from drinking too much water, I dissolved pedialyte-type tablets to make up an electrolyte solution.
It was difficult because I didn't want to give them too much or too little. I had to force them a little. If they moved their heads away, I'd try to put the syringe if their mouths regardless. Usually, they'd drink and sometimes even seem reluctant to let the syringe go. But if they moved their heads away more than once or twice, I'd let it go, or if they stopped drinking midway. For the most of the time over the weekend, I had either guinea pig on my lap and another in a box with bedding and hay not far away. I checked every time I picked them up for pee, so that I wasn't damaging their kidneys by giving more fluids if kidney pressure was building up, and I occasionally checked weight, which was remarkably stable. I didn't see any crystals, sludge, blood or anything unusual.
I'd previously said I weighed the charcoal tabs I gave both pigs before rushing to the vet, and they were 0.7g each. Well I found the bottle and the tabs are 250mg each. I'd put 5 or 6 in water in a rush and given them syringes from that, but it turned out 5 had barely dissolved. So from the time of the discovery of poisoning to going to the vet a little more than 2 1/2 hours later (2 hour rush) to the delay by the vet refusing to give them activated charcoal 4 hours after arriving, they'd had barely any activated charcoal.
The vet had said 5ml was enough. What was in the vet notes was a 50g/250ml solution of which 5ml would have been 1 g. So they didn't get that for 4 hours at the vet, despite me telling the vet while I was there that I don't think it was enough, and despite my calls to let them know they did not have enough. I had called them two hours after the consultation to let them know that I realised the vet must've assumed the activated charcoal solution I'd given them was the same as their standardised solution, and actually described what I had given - tablets barely dissolved etc - and yet she said she was sure it was enough! And I had to say to her I am the only person who can know how much I have given and I am telling you it wasn't enough, there was barely any. And I thought at the end of the call that she would give them a dose but it turned out she hadn't when I called her again two hours later. Anyway, I do go on about this... The point is, whatever that was poisonous was able to poison them for 4 hours after we went to the vet. I also think they could have answered me when I called about activated charcoal and told me the appropriate dose to give them. What had happened was I noticed the chewed leaves, I faintly remembered the article about a plant being poisonous having previously seen https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524846/ and hopped online to look it up, freaked out a bit that that plant was in fact a peace lily, threw some tablets in a bowl with water and gave some to my bigger boy (1100g+) straight away then grabbed the smaller (900g) and gave him some by which time the charcoal was more dissolved. (So the bigger boy whom I suspect of chewing the leaves had much less). I was going to give both more, and water as charcoal is dehydrating, but then I thought pure water works better and our tap water is so full of muck, so I made the quick trip to the store 3-4 minutes away for some. I was going to give them more water and activated charcoal but I wondered if the vet would give want to give them medication or something so I briefly looked online, found something about lactulose which I had a bottle of, and decided to call the vet to ask altogether, with the idea that I'd see them after or maybe the next day after I attend the local emergency or something, but they had just asked me to go there straight away (and I had told them I was at least an hour away and told them of traffic and even called to ask if I should give more activated charcoal while I was on my way there). They just said come, and the vet will wait for me, and I was so worried, rushed and also didn't want to keep the vet waiting past regular hours. I don't know what reason there is, but I think the outcome for any potentially fatal poisoning would have been better had they told me activated charcoal was the right thing to give, and to give an adequate dose before I got there. Or perhaps, had I been able to find the dose online, or perhaps told me to get to an emergency vet nearby asap of which there are many.
Anyway, I decided to follow the multi-dose activated charcoal (in the PDF linked above) which is usually for slow-release medications in case any poisons get recirculated. Maybe a good thing to do as I figured out was to remove their poops so they couldn't reingest any calcium oxalate crystals or other poisons. There was no gastrointestinal disturbance/gut dysbiosis as the vets were apparently so afraid of to administer a dose of activated charcoal, no constipation, no slowing of digestion. They made plentiful big, beautiful, black-brown full-sized poops regularly all throughout the weekend, despite me giving them about 2g extra activated charcoal each after they came home. It helps that I've used activated charcoal myself and knew to give them enough water. Also, I'd seen some scientific? article about how activated charcoal adsorbs more bad bacteria than good bacteria a while ago, so it just didn't seem to me that a small extra dose (not administered over a long period) would cause problems.
At some point, I'd also gone out for some corn silk and corn husks for them to encourage peeing. They'd had about 3 corns worth each with the majority of corn silk going to the larger suspected peace lily muncher.
We'd (the pigs and I) managed to keep a average dose of 98+% minimum hydration over the weekend. I didn't give them pellets until after Sunday and only at half dose. No water other than what I gave. Their weight was pretty steady. Slowly reintroduce veggies since Monday, and have been giving them potassium citrate just in case at 20mg/kg body weight twice a day. (I have one of those microscales bought for myself not guinea pigs. It was pretty cheap and worth getting). This says 100mg/day though. http://www.maru-vet.com/potassium-citra ... anguage=en Also feeding them extra water about 40ml at a guess. They gained some weight since getting their veggies back (about 30g each). Monitoring their weight while feeding them water to keep it steady was so it would give me an idea if their kidneys were working or if water backed up.
Would any of you know how much citric acid to give as it's in Polycitra and I bought some from the baking aisle?
We sat at the computer most of this time. I'm not very organised and the spreadsheet helped so much especially because I was so sleep deprived I kept losing count of the syringefuls I had given them so I just changed the number each time (or scratched down marks on paper) every time I gave one. Definitely recommended to deal with hydration and hand feedings. Pretty simple and not hard to figure out. I have messed up so many notebooks in the past and they weren't good notes. I have since reclaimed the desk and gone back to scratching in a notebook since but when it's super important - a spreadsheet is definitely better.
I do have a question about the Harkness and Wagner figure of 10ml-40ml/100g body weight of water for guinea pigs. 1ml of water is 1g. That's about 10%-40% of body weight. This is a ridiculous amount of water in humans.
Has anyone ever questioned this figure? Or observed it in their guinea pigs. We got to 98% of 10ml/100g and it took almost hourly feedings and feeding until they refused (apart from very few 2-3 naps).
Okay, this is all I can remember for now. Thanks to the brave who have attempted to read through all my long posts.
I almost forgot. The vet called while I was stuck in traffic and I couldn't talk to him. He tried again later, but hung up as I ran to the phone, and I called back twice but couldn't get through. I couldn't call him over the weekend (emergency only) and I haven't heard from him since. I vaguely heard him saying on speakerphone in the passenger seat foot well that he did not believe the guinea pigs had chronic renal failure (despite what he'd said earlier in consultation), but I'm not sure. He'd said peace lily poisoning causes chronic renal failure in consult so I thought it best to assume and treat it way.
First of all, everything about both pigs seem fine. (And I myself have finally caught up with enough sleep to possibly post coherently.)
Lynx, you said you were trying to wrap your brain around what the issue/danger is. I'm not sure what it is either, but the vet said it did not cause "acute renal failure" and caused "chronic renal failure" instead. So here is how I thought of the problem given what little understanding I have of the information I was able to find.
Peace lily contains calcium oxalate crystals, which in cats and dogs cause mouth and digestive tract irritation, possibly airway obstruction/swelling, and don't seem toxic or deadly. In a guinea pig, however, this caused chronic renal failure (along with ingestion of philodendron) after a month. Since these calcium oxalate monohydrate crystals are insoluble, there is a question of whether they will be absorbed via the digestive tract and have to pass out through the urine. I assumed there was a possibility it could somehow end up in the kidneys and clog up the tubules etc and cause pressure build up and renal failure over time.
There may be other poisons in the peace lily that cause renal failure. One of the vets at the emergency centre said this also. So I assume this can poison the kidney also.
So when I picked them up, I was sort of in a tired daze but sobered up enough to start giving them water I'd thrown in the car the previous day. It almost tripled the time to get home with stops every hour to feed them with a syringe.
The vet had said he wanted to keep them over the weekend for fluid diuresis. (I thought he said IV, but it was given subcutaneously). They had given 40ml each by the time I'd picked them up 18 hours later, along with 15ml of vitamin C which is very little water. The bigger one even had slightly sunken eyes and I even took pictures in the car (wonder if it showed). They were supposed to have kidney function tests on Monday which would require isofluorane and blood extraction via the neck. The plan was to have me give extra fluids by mouth for a month after.
I went to see a vet that afternoon to have extra subcutaneous liquids put in, so that I could sleep. The vet said that if I could keep up with giving them fluids orally, in guinea pigs that is preferable to fluids according to a guinea pig veterinary manual he had. The plan was to give them 20mls in each side, but I thought about it and decided to try fluids and go back for the injections the next day if I couldn't feed them enough, and that turned out unnecessary.
I went with the hand feeding page reference of 10-40ml/100g body weight of water. It was hard to keep track of everything in a notebook, and I recently rediscovered spreadsheets so I drew up a simple one. I fed them water via a 1 ml syringe every hour if possible, sometimes more. The spreadsheet calculated the minimum water required per hour, and my goal was to reach that every hour, because it's easier to feed an extra syringeful of water every hour, than to feed a few syringefuls extra every few hours. Also, at first I wanted to feed plain water (the pure stuff I bought) to better flush out any calcium crystals, but because for some reason, I know of this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia where someone could die from drinking too much water, I dissolved pedialyte-type tablets to make up an electrolyte solution.
It was difficult because I didn't want to give them too much or too little. I had to force them a little. If they moved their heads away, I'd try to put the syringe if their mouths regardless. Usually, they'd drink and sometimes even seem reluctant to let the syringe go. But if they moved their heads away more than once or twice, I'd let it go, or if they stopped drinking midway. For the most of the time over the weekend, I had either guinea pig on my lap and another in a box with bedding and hay not far away. I checked every time I picked them up for pee, so that I wasn't damaging their kidneys by giving more fluids if kidney pressure was building up, and I occasionally checked weight, which was remarkably stable. I didn't see any crystals, sludge, blood or anything unusual.
I'd previously said I weighed the charcoal tabs I gave both pigs before rushing to the vet, and they were 0.7g each. Well I found the bottle and the tabs are 250mg each. I'd put 5 or 6 in water in a rush and given them syringes from that, but it turned out 5 had barely dissolved. So from the time of the discovery of poisoning to going to the vet a little more than 2 1/2 hours later (2 hour rush) to the delay by the vet refusing to give them activated charcoal 4 hours after arriving, they'd had barely any activated charcoal.
The vet had said 5ml was enough. What was in the vet notes was a 50g/250ml solution of which 5ml would have been 1 g. So they didn't get that for 4 hours at the vet, despite me telling the vet while I was there that I don't think it was enough, and despite my calls to let them know they did not have enough. I had called them two hours after the consultation to let them know that I realised the vet must've assumed the activated charcoal solution I'd given them was the same as their standardised solution, and actually described what I had given - tablets barely dissolved etc - and yet she said she was sure it was enough! And I had to say to her I am the only person who can know how much I have given and I am telling you it wasn't enough, there was barely any. And I thought at the end of the call that she would give them a dose but it turned out she hadn't when I called her again two hours later. Anyway, I do go on about this... The point is, whatever that was poisonous was able to poison them for 4 hours after we went to the vet. I also think they could have answered me when I called about activated charcoal and told me the appropriate dose to give them. What had happened was I noticed the chewed leaves, I faintly remembered the article about a plant being poisonous having previously seen https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524846/ and hopped online to look it up, freaked out a bit that that plant was in fact a peace lily, threw some tablets in a bowl with water and gave some to my bigger boy (1100g+) straight away then grabbed the smaller (900g) and gave him some by which time the charcoal was more dissolved. (So the bigger boy whom I suspect of chewing the leaves had much less). I was going to give both more, and water as charcoal is dehydrating, but then I thought pure water works better and our tap water is so full of muck, so I made the quick trip to the store 3-4 minutes away for some. I was going to give them more water and activated charcoal but I wondered if the vet would give want to give them medication or something so I briefly looked online, found something about lactulose which I had a bottle of, and decided to call the vet to ask altogether, with the idea that I'd see them after or maybe the next day after I attend the local emergency or something, but they had just asked me to go there straight away (and I had told them I was at least an hour away and told them of traffic and even called to ask if I should give more activated charcoal while I was on my way there). They just said come, and the vet will wait for me, and I was so worried, rushed and also didn't want to keep the vet waiting past regular hours. I don't know what reason there is, but I think the outcome for any potentially fatal poisoning would have been better had they told me activated charcoal was the right thing to give, and to give an adequate dose before I got there. Or perhaps, had I been able to find the dose online, or perhaps told me to get to an emergency vet nearby asap of which there are many.
Anyway, I decided to follow the multi-dose activated charcoal (in the PDF linked above) which is usually for slow-release medications in case any poisons get recirculated. Maybe a good thing to do as I figured out was to remove their poops so they couldn't reingest any calcium oxalate crystals or other poisons. There was no gastrointestinal disturbance/gut dysbiosis as the vets were apparently so afraid of to administer a dose of activated charcoal, no constipation, no slowing of digestion. They made plentiful big, beautiful, black-brown full-sized poops regularly all throughout the weekend, despite me giving them about 2g extra activated charcoal each after they came home. It helps that I've used activated charcoal myself and knew to give them enough water. Also, I'd seen some scientific? article about how activated charcoal adsorbs more bad bacteria than good bacteria a while ago, so it just didn't seem to me that a small extra dose (not administered over a long period) would cause problems.
At some point, I'd also gone out for some corn silk and corn husks for them to encourage peeing. They'd had about 3 corns worth each with the majority of corn silk going to the larger suspected peace lily muncher.
We'd (the pigs and I) managed to keep a average dose of 98+% minimum hydration over the weekend. I didn't give them pellets until after Sunday and only at half dose. No water other than what I gave. Their weight was pretty steady. Slowly reintroduce veggies since Monday, and have been giving them potassium citrate just in case at 20mg/kg body weight twice a day. (I have one of those microscales bought for myself not guinea pigs. It was pretty cheap and worth getting). This says 100mg/day though. http://www.maru-vet.com/potassium-citra ... anguage=en Also feeding them extra water about 40ml at a guess. They gained some weight since getting their veggies back (about 30g each). Monitoring their weight while feeding them water to keep it steady was so it would give me an idea if their kidneys were working or if water backed up.
Would any of you know how much citric acid to give as it's in Polycitra and I bought some from the baking aisle?
We sat at the computer most of this time. I'm not very organised and the spreadsheet helped so much especially because I was so sleep deprived I kept losing count of the syringefuls I had given them so I just changed the number each time (or scratched down marks on paper) every time I gave one. Definitely recommended to deal with hydration and hand feedings. Pretty simple and not hard to figure out. I have messed up so many notebooks in the past and they weren't good notes. I have since reclaimed the desk and gone back to scratching in a notebook since but when it's super important - a spreadsheet is definitely better.
I do have a question about the Harkness and Wagner figure of 10ml-40ml/100g body weight of water for guinea pigs. 1ml of water is 1g. That's about 10%-40% of body weight. This is a ridiculous amount of water in humans.
Has anyone ever questioned this figure? Or observed it in their guinea pigs. We got to 98% of 10ml/100g and it took almost hourly feedings and feeding until they refused (apart from very few 2-3 naps).
Okay, this is all I can remember for now. Thanks to the brave who have attempted to read through all my long posts.
I almost forgot. The vet called while I was stuck in traffic and I couldn't talk to him. He tried again later, but hung up as I ran to the phone, and I called back twice but couldn't get through. I couldn't call him over the weekend (emergency only) and I haven't heard from him since. I vaguely heard him saying on speakerphone in the passenger seat foot well that he did not believe the guinea pigs had chronic renal failure (despite what he'd said earlier in consultation), but I'm not sure. He'd said peace lily poisoning causes chronic renal failure in consult so I thought it best to assume and treat it way.
-
- You can quote me
From my understanding and experience, for a 1 kilo pig --
30-35 cc's fluid daily => minimum;
~60 cc's => adequate;
~80-100 cc's => optimal.
From a practical standpoint: one, a really sick pig that's not drinking anything at all can get by on a 30-35 cc subcue. Two, many pigs don't drink much, so 60 cc's or so will be "okay", especially if they get good servings of wet greens.
Three, 100 mL ~= 1/5 of a 16 oz. water bottle. If our pigs go through 40% or so of a 16 oz. water bottle, we're happy.
400 mL/kg of pig is a *lot* of water. I certainly would never try to force that much, or subcue that much. We've had a couple to drink that much, but much more than that and I'd start wondering about diabetes.
Tl;dr: I agree with you and feel the lower end of the Harkness/Wagner figure is more appropriate than the higher end. They may be extrapolating from other animals (I don't know this, just a guess) like rabbits. Cavies evolved in a climate without a lot of "free" water, and tend not to drink very well. That said, the closer they come to 80-100 mL/kg daily, the better off their health will be from my experience.
I think you're right in that the vet thought you were referring to an activated charcoal solution similar to what they use at the hospital. It would have been nice if they had freaking *listened* to you.
Hope yours continue to do well, and have no chronic renal problems down the road. Please do let us know how they're doing.
30-35 cc's fluid daily => minimum;
~60 cc's => adequate;
~80-100 cc's => optimal.
From a practical standpoint: one, a really sick pig that's not drinking anything at all can get by on a 30-35 cc subcue. Two, many pigs don't drink much, so 60 cc's or so will be "okay", especially if they get good servings of wet greens.
Three, 100 mL ~= 1/5 of a 16 oz. water bottle. If our pigs go through 40% or so of a 16 oz. water bottle, we're happy.
400 mL/kg of pig is a *lot* of water. I certainly would never try to force that much, or subcue that much. We've had a couple to drink that much, but much more than that and I'd start wondering about diabetes.
Tl;dr: I agree with you and feel the lower end of the Harkness/Wagner figure is more appropriate than the higher end. They may be extrapolating from other animals (I don't know this, just a guess) like rabbits. Cavies evolved in a climate without a lot of "free" water, and tend not to drink very well. That said, the closer they come to 80-100 mL/kg daily, the better off their health will be from my experience.
I think you're right in that the vet thought you were referring to an activated charcoal solution similar to what they use at the hospital. It would have been nice if they had freaking *listened* to you.
Hope yours continue to do well, and have no chronic renal problems down the road. Please do let us know how they're doing.
Thanks for this, Talishan. That was reassuring.
I forgot to mention they have access to water since Monday. About 40mls? of extra via syringe is on the conservative side I guess but I went by how much they would drink (the little one tends to be more cooperative). They've come close to 100ml/kg so I'm going to let them guide me with this and have even eased off a little with 3-4 hourly feedings (since the weekend was a bit stressful).
Correction of previous post: The vet said that if I could keep up with giving them fluids orally, in guinea pigs that can be preferable to subcutaneous or ivfluids according to a guinea pig veterinary manual he had because of stress.
I forgot to mention they have access to water since Monday. About 40mls? of extra via syringe is on the conservative side I guess but I went by how much they would drink (the little one tends to be more cooperative). They've come close to 100ml/kg so I'm going to let them guide me with this and have even eased off a little with 3-4 hourly feedings (since the weekend was a bit stressful).
Correction of previous post: The vet said that if I could keep up with giving them fluids orally, in guinea pigs that can be preferable to subcutaneous or ivfluids according to a guinea pig veterinary manual he had because of stress.
Another thing.
The recommendation I hear for activated charcoal is do not give two hours before or after medications (or probiotics). This is probably why the protocol for multi-dose activated charcoal recommends dosing every 4-6 hours. http://www.delawarevalleyacademyvm.org/ ... 26pgs).pdf "Current recommended dosing for multiple doses of AC is 1–2 g of AC without a cathartic /kg of body weight, PO q 4–6 hours for 24 hours."
The two vets had said something about a second dose of AC 12 hours after, but given this "In veterinary medicine, administration of AC [activated charcoal] with a cathartic as long as 6 hours out may still be beneficial with certain types of toxicosis, particularly if the product has delayed release...", I'd go with 4-6 hours.
I'm not sure my giving them activated charcoal still did any good that long after initial poisoning, but I hope if they was a chance of it being able to absorb some recirculated/remaining poisons, what I'd given was enough and adequate. They'd been having the (made from tablet) charcoal solution which was weaker than I'd realised, until I went out and bought 500g of proper activated charcoal powder. At least now I know for sure that it definitely did not/would not have caused their gut any problems (no bloat, stasis, slowing etc) that the vets had made such a big deal of in their reluctance to administer their dose of AC, which I suspected was the case anyway.
The recommendation I hear for activated charcoal is do not give two hours before or after medications (or probiotics). This is probably why the protocol for multi-dose activated charcoal recommends dosing every 4-6 hours. http://www.delawarevalleyacademyvm.org/ ... 26pgs).pdf "Current recommended dosing for multiple doses of AC is 1–2 g of AC without a cathartic /kg of body weight, PO q 4–6 hours for 24 hours."
The two vets had said something about a second dose of AC 12 hours after, but given this "In veterinary medicine, administration of AC [activated charcoal] with a cathartic as long as 6 hours out may still be beneficial with certain types of toxicosis, particularly if the product has delayed release...", I'd go with 4-6 hours.
I'm not sure my giving them activated charcoal still did any good that long after initial poisoning, but I hope if they was a chance of it being able to absorb some recirculated/remaining poisons, what I'd given was enough and adequate. They'd been having the (made from tablet) charcoal solution which was weaker than I'd realised, until I went out and bought 500g of proper activated charcoal powder. At least now I know for sure that it definitely did not/would not have caused their gut any problems (no bloat, stasis, slowing etc) that the vets had made such a big deal of in their reluctance to administer their dose of AC, which I suspected was the case anyway.
The vet recommended a blood test last week, and I have yet to hear from him what his discharge recommendation is. We're booked for one soon, and I had asked if a urine test instead would do (the answer was unclear - I think it was that they could indeed perform a blood test). Is there anything a blood test would show that a urine test can't, such as early kidney failure and would earlier detection improve outcome? Talishan, I saw in Callie's thread that you tend to stay from from blood draws unless necessary. Would you perhaps be able to suggest why blood test and not urine?
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- You can quote me
From what I understand -- and I am not a doctor nor vet -- the kidney markers in a standard blood panel don't start to move until renal disease is fairly well advanced. That is, if your pigs were to develop the earliest stages of kidney compromise, a standard blood test may not show it, so it's of little value. My knowledge is, however, dated on this point.
More importantly, blood is *extraordinarily* difficult to draw from a guinea pig. The stress, sedation, and difficulty are not worth it to me unless there is a clear, specific need for it.
Many vets do blood work routinely on dogs and cats, as doctors do on humans. A blood draw is never a routine or check-the-box thing with a guinea pig, and vets need to realize this.
I would think a urine test that determines concentration would be more useful than a blood test, but again I am neither vet nor doc.
I've had two vets tell me that fluids taken by mouth are more effective than subcutaneous or IV administration. Of course, if the animal is not drinking at all, those avenues are preferable to dehydration, and there's no spillage or waste. But in general, fluids are absorbed and utilized better if they go in the way nature intended.
More importantly, blood is *extraordinarily* difficult to draw from a guinea pig. The stress, sedation, and difficulty are not worth it to me unless there is a clear, specific need for it.
Many vets do blood work routinely on dogs and cats, as doctors do on humans. A blood draw is never a routine or check-the-box thing with a guinea pig, and vets need to realize this.
I would think a urine test that determines concentration would be more useful than a blood test, but again I am neither vet nor doc.
I've had two vets tell me that fluids taken by mouth are more effective than subcutaneous or IV administration. Of course, if the animal is not drinking at all, those avenues are preferable to dehydration, and there's no spillage or waste. But in general, fluids are absorbed and utilized better if they go in the way nature intended.
Thanks, Talishan. We have an appointment before the blood test and I will ask about whether it is worth having, or whether a urine test is preferable.
The guinea pig that died from eating peace lily was lethargic and had no appetite supposedly three days after eating one leaf (but had been nibbling on a philodendron stem which is 0.7% calcium oxalate for two months and some varieties are poisonous to rats and mice). Mine are showing no symptoms at all that I'm wondering if I'm making too big of a deal of it, but my impression is that renal failure isn't very obvious until advanced. I'll talk to the vet and see what he says. Thanks again.
The guinea pig that died from eating peace lily was lethargic and had no appetite supposedly three days after eating one leaf (but had been nibbling on a philodendron stem which is 0.7% calcium oxalate for two months and some varieties are poisonous to rats and mice). Mine are showing no symptoms at all that I'm wondering if I'm making too big of a deal of it, but my impression is that renal failure isn't very obvious until advanced. I'll talk to the vet and see what he says. Thanks again.
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- You can quote me
You're correct, I think, in that renal compromise isn't apparent until it's pretty well advanced. It's also my understanding that there's not much that can be done to treat it, other than ensuring good hydration (supplemental liquids, lots of wet greens, subcue fluids if necessary). That may have changed, though; my knowledge here is dated.
An outright nephrotic kidney can be surgically removed; we've had at least one on GL, maybe more. Like humans, they can do fine on one kidney; the trick is to find a surgeon good enough to do it.
Hopefully nothing anywhere near that will be necessary. Best to them and please keep us posted.
An outright nephrotic kidney can be surgically removed; we've had at least one on GL, maybe more. Like humans, they can do fine on one kidney; the trick is to find a surgeon good enough to do it.
Hopefully nothing anywhere near that will be necessary. Best to them and please keep us posted.