Heart murmur

[amyfw]

Hi all,

This is Amy, mama to Butterscotch (intact female, chronic UTI. RIP- died at age 5 1/2)

My surviving piggie, Carmel Baby Fudge Sundae (called Baby for short) is a 5 year old neutered male. I rescued him and his mama in January 2015. He was a baby but was skittish around humans and remains so to this day.

A little over a year ago he developed a tooth root abscess of his upper right incisor. I believe I posted about it then (???) but couldn’t find it so please either allow this thread to continue or lump it in with that.

My issue today is that he had an episode back in August 2019 where after a routine nail clipping at the vet, he appeared a bit less active than usual. He lay down in his cage instead of trying to sit up or hide (usual behaviors) Fearing the worst, that he had heart problems, I rushed him to Cornell. They did not hear anything wrong with his heart and in fact put him through a few stressful situations and tried to recreate the events from the nail clipping all to no avail.

However, his mama Butterscotch just passed away 2 weeks ago from the sudden symptom onset of chronic heart failure. She had no symptoms and was seen every 2 weeks at the vet for other issues and no one saw it coming. This led me to again get Baby into Cornell since he had that single episode and now a genetic component.

He stopped eating as much as usual Sunday and so we was rushed in today instead of waiting for his scheduled appointment Ext week.

They found a heart murmur and in addition, his tooth root abscess is most likely back (the tooth was removed but somehow grew back so we suspect the bacteria is still in there)

The plan is to start him on antibiotic meds for the tooth root abscess and wait 3 weeks for them to work before going in for an echocardiogram because apparently some dental issues can affect the heart and vice versa. They say there is a tiny chance that the infection is causing the murmur and that the antibiotic can maybe clear it up.

We suspect that since this never happened before when he had the infection and because his mom had heart issues that it is not the infection but they want to wait it out to give the chance to check since the echocardiogram is risky since they have to knock him out.

I asked about starting him on heart meds now so that things don’t get worse but they said heart meds can cause serious problems with kidney failure so they would really rather wait to see if the antibiotics help and then properly diagnose so that they know how much to give and what to give.

What are thoughts for all of you? Is it wise to wait on treatment? What meds and dosages are usually used? How long should I e left him to live with this? How can I best care for him? Any advice or suggestions are appreciated?

[Sef]

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. I don't have anything useful to offer, but hope you can get some answers.

[Lynx]

Have you read the page on heart issues? It may be helpful.
https://www.guinealynx.info/heart.html

I am sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds like there may be various complications.

[amyfw]

Thanks Sef and Lynx.

I am looking into all of those links and hopefully we will have answers soon. The echo is in 3 weeks ( to give the abscess time to heal some) so we will know more then.

I do wonder if there is any way an illness could have caused this. I know it’s a stretch but when Butterscotch was at Cornell they said a very ill bird was seen before her and right after that she got sick and died and now Carmel Baby is sick with heart failure as well. I just wonder if there is a strange avian virus or bacteria that could be causing heart problems. Of course, it can be genetic as well so it could be a coincidence but I do wonder...

It’s just hard to go through this so close to when I just lost Butterscotch but I also was prepared to have him go downhill after her loss. Reminds me of hearing about couples in their 80’s that pass within a few days of each other.

[Sef]

I remember your mentioning the ill bird. It's hard to say, but I would doubt that there's a connection. It's hard to know what was wrong with the bird, and even if it were some sort of airborne virus, other animals exposed to it at the vet's office would have likely become ill, too. I can understand your concern, though.

Do let us know what you find out. I'll be very curious to hear the determination and treatment.

[amyfw]

Update- Baby has stopped eating. No sign of the food being touched, weight is down from yesterday and very few poops.

I have tons of critical care on hand to help but I noticed while sitting with him he snuck out to eat a little on his own. He can’t eat terribly fast due to the tooth but he ate a half a carrot, some dandelion greens, hay and 2 pellets. Mostly he focused on hay for a full 15 minutes.

He is my wimpy guy so I am thinking maybe the vet visits two days in a row and new medication schedule are scaring him and he needed someone near by to protect him and be there to alert him to danger (like Butterscotch would have done)

Do we think this is the new medicine? ( he always tolerated metronidazole well before at least the first few weeks) or the tooth pain or heart or just being alone and scared and needing comfort?

[Sef]

I think maybe a combination of those things. I've seen guinea pigs adjust to loss initially, then become skittish for a while once they realize that they are alone. Be patient and give him extra love and attention, but also watch for signs of antibiotic intolerance. See:
https://www.guinealynx.info/antibiotic_advice.html

[amyfw]

Sef, if loss of appetite is the only symptom, and I can keep him going with critical care, should I keep him on the meds or try to switch? He needs a drug that can attack anerobic bacteria and I think those options are rare.

[amyfw]

Caramel Baby is doing even worse. He seems to get very distressed about being on meds. It’s only a quick small dose 2 x a day but he acts like he had major surgery after and a flock of eagles are after him.

I speak to him calmly, give him lots of pets, and still, he is not acting well. He did not eat overnight but then ate when I sat directly next to his cage and put hay in his hut, not outside of it.

When I just want to give him meds he did not even run away like usual, he just cowered and when I put him back in he cowered again instead of either bouncing back and eating veggies or at least running to hide u til I go like usual.

I almost feel like he has completely given up now that his mama is not here.

I was sort of a small comfort to him if I were nearby but now I’m the “enemy” because I give him meds.

I tried critical care and he just spit it all out. I gave him veggies and he ignored them. It’s like he thinks I poisoned them.

I have no idea what to do.

[Sef]

I would call your vet and tell them what is going on. It sounds like maybe the antibiotic is messing with his appetite this time around. Have you tried a probiotic? I'd want to make the vet aware ASAP and see what they want to do. He cannot not eat.

[Lynx]

Is he showing signs of pain?
https://www.guinealynx.info/pain.html

If so, pain medication might also help.

[amyfw]

I have called the vet both yesterday and today. I told them that he did well on metronidazole last time until the last 2 weeks when this happened (not eating) so maybe he is developing an intolerance but they didn’t think so.

His weight is down to 1125 from 1152 on Tuesday.

He is still not leaving his hut but he is eating if I sit with him.

I have him on metacam but maybe he needs a little more to help through the pain?

And he won’t take the probiotic but I will get maybe a powder instead of the paste and see if that helps.